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Is a Hot Dog a sandwich?
“Of course not. It's a hot dog (you imbecile)… “ would be your response, if you're anything like the average major-league baseball player.
Point of Order—while no major leaguer actually called me an imbecile over the past few weeks, I have been using an official MLB credential to ask whether they felt a Hot Dog is a sandwich. As such, I could sense they wanted to verbalize “imbecile.” It's in the eyes.
But before we lose focus on my potential imbecility (did not expect that to get through spellcheck), please snap back to the matter at hand and consider this whole Hot Dog/sandwich thing because, first of all, we're talking about Hot Dogs here, people. HOT DOGS. No food-thing is more essential to the ballpark experience—not beer, not nachos, not peanuts. If you're at a baseball game and you're not eating a Hot Dog at some point, you're doing it wrong. And secondly, this Hot Dog/sandwich thing is a really nuanced situation.
What makes something a sandwich? Which criteria are mandatory? Which aren't? When we call something a sandwich, what's the specific idea we're trying to convey? Does the shape of a sandwich's components matter? What lines do we draw here and where do we draw them?
We'll get to some fun baseball player conversations on this topic in a bit, including a chat with, arguably, the most educated player currently in MLB. We'll also have some data to glance at, covering more than two dozen opinions on the matter. First, though, some context.
"Basically the hot dog-as-sandwich debate has been something Twitter has discussed for as long as I remember," opined BP's Craig Goldstein. "I am just a bit player in it."
Upon informing Sam Miller that I'd spent a couple weeks aggregating opinion on the “Is a Hot Dog a sandwich” debate, and that I'd planned on presenting my findings as a fun little aside, he basically told me I was stupid, and that I should turn it into a full-fledged piece, and that I should reach out to Craig, as BP’s leading philosopher on the issue.
So what gives Craig this status among the sandwich-classification intelligentsia?
"I delight in taking matters of pure opinion and talking about them as though there are distinct borders upon which they operate, and this frustrates the living hell out of people."
Breaking new ontological ground we're clearly not. That said, I have to think Plato, Descartes, Kant, Sartre, et al would welcome this sort of discussion. Back to Craig: I asked for his original conception of what makes something a sandwich.
"I think I was like most people, with a very basic understanding. Two pieces of bread with something in between—be it meat, veggies, peanut butter or what-have-you.
“This is where it gets tricky though. People have visceral reactions to the ideas of non-standard sandwiches being considered as such, but if you get into the nitty-gritty of what a sandwich is, you start to have to have rules."
"If you ask somebody to go make you a sandwich, they're not gonna make you a Hot Dog." –Pirates infielder Josh Harrison
Harrison's quote was one of several reasonable angles taken by the No crowd. It's a particularly good example because, on some level, passing a test of cultural pragmatism seems legitimate when it comes to these sorts of debates.
Consider that, through the sheer power of cultural familiarity, the official definition of “literally” has literally been changed to also imply “figuratively.”
Personally, I loathe the change to “literally.” It's stupid and wrong and stupid and stupid. But the culture has spoken. The shared idea of that word has become so broken, so pervasively misused that the linguistic tail has won out and wagged the dog. We've had to reverse-engineer the damn thing.
The lesson here—we underestimate the power of shared culture at our peril. Which brings us back to the Hot Dog question.
"No, it's not a sandwich. It's a Hot Dog."
That was the exact quote from both Zach Duke of the Brewers and Brock Holt of the Red Sox, each of whom was unwittingly supporting Josh Harrison's implied argument in favor of cultural sandwich conceptualization. We have more proof of this cultural norm; among the players who were simply asked The Question without any followup… a sort of control for our experiment… 14 of 15 gave a flat “No.”
As for Duke and Holt (coming to TBS this fall!) both guys also declared the Hot Dog to be in a class by itself, which was a familiar refrain among respondents; almost a quarter (6/25) of those polled believed the Hot Dog to be unique in its classification.
But an even larger percentage of players belong to a group we'll call Changers—guys who initially went with No, but upon being Socratic Method-ed, changed their minds.
One example of a Changer was Red Sox rookie Mookie Betts. Here's our conversation in full:
Me: Is a Hot Dog a sandwich?
Mookie Betts: No. It's not. I feel like a Hot Dog is in its own category, not really a sandwich. That's my take on it.
Me: Is a Hamburger a sandwich?
MB: Yes, I think that's a sandwich.
Me: So what makes a hamburger a sandwich?
MB: I think a hamburger's a sandwich because the meat goes between two pieces of bread. I'm getting myself into a corner here.
Me: Yes, you are. Do you even need meat for it to be a sandwich?
MB: I guess not. PB&J. Grilled cheese. Those are both sandwiches.
Me: So let's go back to the start. Is a Hot Dog a sandwich?
MB: Yeah, I think it's a sandwich.
It really was a textbook reversal from the affable Mr. Betts, who, to his credit, had an open mind and was willing to let me play Devil's Advocate (which I did for both sides of this debate with each poll-ee).
Perhaps my favorite Changer was Pirates backup catcher Tony Sanchez.
Me: Is a Hot Dog a sandwich?
TS: No. Absolutely not. First thing that comes to my mind as a sandwich includes deli meat, sliced deli meat and lettuce, tomato, onions, mayo, mustard. A Hot Dog, regardless of how much mustard you put on it, is not a sandwich.
Me: So because the bologna is delivered differently when it's in Hot Dog form, it's no longer a sandwich?
TS: Correct. Right.
Me: So the form of the meat is determinant when it comes to classifying something as a sandwich?
TS: I would say so, yeah. And I'm gonna stick by that… … … even though you bring up a very valid point… … … Shoot!
At this point Tony began laughing, his resolve wavering.
Me: So does the shape of the bread matter? The type of bread?
TS: No. Bread is bread.
Me: So is a wrap a sandwich?
TS: No! Heck no. Absolutely not! A wrap is a poor excuse for a sandwich. But godblessit, a sub is a sandwich. And the bread… I'm so rattled right now.
Me: Is a Hamburger a sandwich?
TS: No. No! A hamburger is a hamburger!
Me: So why isn't a hamburger a sandwich?
TS: Because you grill the meat on a barbecue.
Me: The hell does that have to do with it?
TS: You're right. You're absolutely right. Because you throw lettuce on it, tomatoes, mayo, mustard, ketchup. A hamburger is a sandwich!! You're blowing my mind, dude. You're blowing my mind. The next time we barbecue and someone asks me if I want a hamburger, I'm gonna say, 'Yeah, I'd love a sandwich.'
Me: So back to the original question. Is a Hot Dog a sandwich?
TS: (deep breath) A HOT DOG IS A SANDWICH!! [Maniacal laughter.] A Hot Dog is a sandwich. Unbelievable.
Me: Seeing the evolution of your thought process there was rewarding.
TS: You threw bologna in there and blew my mind. How could I argue against bologna? Just because a Hot Dog isn't thinly sliced deli meat; it's just a different form factor. People evolve and sandwiches evolve.
Other Changers include the Pirates' Andrew McCutchen, and Arismendy Alcantara and Ryan Kalish of the Cubs.
In terms of guys who were Yes Men right out of the gate, the list, such as it is, is incredibly small. It consists of one large man, Jared Hughes of the Pirates, who was easily the most open-minded player polled when it came to ontological sandwichness. Jared, by default, had hamburgers, wraps and hot dogs all as sandwiches. Open-faced sandwiches? Of course. A bagel with cream cheese? A sandwich.
The only example Jared originally believed to be in the No column was that of a burrito. But even then, he was willing consider alternative arguments after learning that the State of New York had legally declared a burrito to be a sandwich for taxation purposes.
You read it right by the way—rulings have come from State Benches on the issue of what constitutes a sandwich.
This seems like a good point to bring our Craig Goldstein back on board. I sent him a draft of the piece to this point and sought comment.
"I guess what makes this fun for me is exactly what took place with the Changers. Their immediate reaction is of course, "No, a hot dog is its own thing." But if you delve into the whys, it becomes clear the issue is deeper than that. We're so instinctual in our actions and reactions that we don't pay attention to what we might actually believe. You see this in the Changers—when they stop and think about it for a minute they realize their position makes no sense. The guys who still think no? Well, cognitive dissonance is a hell of a thing.
"I'll add that, while everything above is accurate, I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge that frustrating others is half the fun. That said, I'm actually dying to know what Breslow has to say on this."
Let's get to it, then, and end our Hot Dog/sandwich examination with a man who may be the game's most educated player, Craig Breslow of the Red Sox, owner of a B.A. in Molecular Biophysics and Biochemistry… from Yale.
As with the rest of our participants, I asked Breslow whether a Hot Dog was a sandwich. What followed was a laugh, seven seconds of contemplated silence, and then…
"No."
Huh. I was kind of expecting a Yes there, if I'm honest. Fourteen more seconds passed before he spoke again.
"I think there needs to be intent on the sandwich's part to close on all sides."
Intrigued by this new idea, I asked him how many sandwiches he knew of that closed on all sides.
"Well, the intent, right. There's no reason that a peanut butter & jelly sandwich can't have a seam all the way around with contact. But (with a Hot Dog), there's no intention for the top pieces of the bun to connect. Symmetry matters."
I was flummoxed. My usual Socratic blueprint was useless. No bread fallacies. No meat fallacies. Breslow was on point.
So why should something as superficial as the symmetry of a thing be determinant here?
"Is a wrap a sandwich? No. Is a pita a sandwich? No. A pizza? I think appearance is very telling."
With zero preparation and forethought, Breslow had seemingly gotten to the heart of the cultural argument Josh Harrison and others had made previously and combined it with an implied biological foundation. Think about it—to most of us, and in many, many things, appearance matters. We might not want the looks of a thing to dictate choice, but more often than not, it does. We are a visual species.
From an old Discover Magazine article:
"In the brain itself, neurons devoted to visual processing number in the hundreds of millions and take up about 30 percent of the cortex, as compared with 8 percent for touch and just 3 percent for hearing. Each of the two optic nerves, which carry signals from the retina to the brain, consists of a million fibers; each auditory nerve carries a mere 30,000."
Humans are evolutionarily hard-wired to place a high value on visual cues, and to make snap judgments based on that data. And Breslow instinctively understood that.
Even more interestingly, despite agreeing that bread isn't necessary for something to be a considered a sandwich, and agreeing that a sandwich doesn't even have to be food—"I suppose not, but then I would not recommend eating it”—Breslow wouldn't be swayed from his No Crowd vote on the Hot Dog matter. He was a really interesting guy—both intensely intelligent and true to his evolutionary roots.
Of course, he was dead wrong about the Hot Dog thing—of course it's a sandwich—but hey, nobody's perfect.
The Data:
- Initial Noes: 24
- Yes Men: 1
Among those properly interviewed on The Question:
- No Crowd: 5
- Changers: 5
Subsets:
- Hot Dog is in a Class of Its Own (included in No Crowd): 6
Hot Dogs eaten during the creation of this piece: 3
Hot Dogs eaten at ballparks by the author, lifetime: So, so many.
Ideal Hot Dog preparation for the author: An irresponsible amount of brown/spicy mustard, Heinz ketchup if available (no ketchup if not). [Ed note: Ketchup? Oh, brother.]
Thank you for reading
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More about:
bhacking
9/26
Finally a topic I can sink my teeth into!
Reply to bhacking
rdemaro
9/26
*Rimshot*
Reply to rdemaro
captnamerca
9/26
The hot dog is the platypus of the sandwich family.
Reply to captnamerca
rdemaro
9/26
Perhaps... but it *is* in the family...
Reply to rdemaro
Shawnykid23
9/26
Well done. Sandwich Prospectus is real...and it's spectacular
Reply to Shawnykid23
rdemaro
9/26
Thanks, Shawn! And yeah, this whole debate is a bit Seinfeldian, innit.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
Yeah. What's with the rabid Anti Ketch-ites? Next they'll be saying we should have our own schools!
Reply to therealn0d
jivas21
9/26
I'm from Chicago; I'm a raging anti-Ketchite!
Reply to jivas21
mschieve
9/26
I would like to have seen a poll for the readers.
Reply to mschieve
rdemaro
9/26
My guess is that it'd be similar to the data I came up with--the majority voting No if the question is simple, quick & binary. That said, our readership is pretty sharp. Lots of critical thinkers here, obviously. Might be closer to 50/50 than in a larger, societal sample.
Reply to rdemaro
redguy12588
9/26
Craig nailed it. There is no intent to sandwich the hot dog in a bun. Hence a hot dog in a bun is not a sandwich. However if you put a hot dog between two slices of bread (you're a barbarian if you do this), then it becomes a sandwich. An open face sandwich isn't really a sandwich either. It's more like a pie.
Reply to redguy12588
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
The club sandwich has no intent to close, yet is clearly a sandwich. This theory is deeply flawed.
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
redguy12588
9/26
Sandwich doesn't necessarily need to seal, the top piece of bread just needs to be parallel to the bottom, which is not the case of a hot dog or a pita.
Reply to redguy12588
BSLJeffLong
9/26
What say to to subs being sandwiches then?
Reply to BSLJeffLong
BSLJeffLong
9/26
What say you to...
Yay for typing good and stuff.
Reply to BSLJeffLong
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
Yep, Sub Sandwiches pose an issue to this theory. The idea that sandwiches are limited to a vertical nature i/r/t is wrong to me.
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
warpigs
9/26
A sub sandwich is not a sandwich. It's a separate category. Thus the need to define it as a "sub".
Reply to warpigs
therealn0d
9/26
So you're saying it's a subcategory?
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/30
Of course subs are sandwiches! Whether or where a piece of bread is sliced in no way changes the basic nature of a sandwich.
Subs, hot dogs, etc., -- definitely in.
Reply to rdemaro
jfranco77
9/26
I am with Dave (literally as I am also in Pittsburgh) ... I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss the verticality issue.
A sub or hoagie is sometimes (usually?) served with the 2 sides of the roll parallel to the ground. Isn't it? Put another way, it would be a hell of a lot easier to eat a hoagie that way. Whereas a hot dog would be more difficult to eat that way.
If this is your hot dog:
-
0
-
You'll be very messy. Hot dogs should be like this:
|0|
On the other hand I eat my chicken parm or Italian hoagie like this
-
0
-
Reply to jfranco77
therealn0d
9/28
"I am with Dave (literally as I am also in Pittsburgh)"
You mean figuratively?
Reply to therealn0d
therealn0d
9/26
Ahem, a club sandwich is classic sandwich. It is only cut into triangles for presentation and ease of consumption.
I've been ordering club sandwiches for years and I'm not even a member. I don't know how I've been getting away with it. <-I hope someone gets that reference.
Reply to therealn0d
castrojr
9/26
How do you feel about frilly toothpicks?
Reply to castrojr
therealn0d
9/26
I'm for 'em! Let's form a club!
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
Mrs. DeMaro literally laughed out loud at your comment, Dave.
"We've all been there, forced to put the hot dog in a non-bun piece of bread. It's so, so wrong."
Thanks for reading, sir.
Reply to rdemaro
Dodger300
9/27
I dunno about your campaign against bread. I do agree that if you put a hot dog between two slices you're doing it wrong.
But if you wrap a heel around the bread that is perfectly acceptable, no? In fact, I believe it is the only approved use for the heels, besides deep-fat frying them to make croutons.
Moreover, I'd be willing to bet that the originator of the hot dog bun was inspired by the heel. The hot dog bun was his way to bake little loafs that were nothing but heels.
As final proof, that is why hot dog buns are sold eight to a package while the hot dogs themselves come iin packs of ten. That is so one has two hot dogs left over to use with the heels that are from that loaf sitting in the bread box.
Reply to Dodger300
ADprospectus
9/26
We focus first on the bread, but the answer is in the meat. Tubular meat is the distinguishing feature. Tony was so close.
Reply to ADprospectus
rdemaro
9/26
Yeah, but PB & J, grilled cheese, etc. Clearly, meat is not necessary for something to be a sandwich.
Reply to rdemaro
lawluke
9/26
Little concerned about the photo used... that looks like a sausage! Furthermore there is ketchup on that thing? No one over the age of 7 puts ketchup on a Hot Dog. This definitely needs a little more research.
Reply to lawluke
rdemaro
9/26
See below--I'm a mustard guy, first and foremost. But salty & sweet just works. No reason it can't on a hot dog. As long as the ratio is on-point (3:1, brown mustard to ketchup), ketchup is a reasonable condiment choice in my book.
Reply to rdemaro
MylesHandley
9/26
I think this is the first time the entire article lost it's credibility on the last sentence alone. Ketchup and Hot Dogs go together like children and flamethrowers.
Reply to MylesHandley
rdemaro
9/26
See below... and above.
That said, thanks for reading, Myles!
Reply to rdemaro
navarred
9/26
I remember my first flamethrower. That was some fun. Some serious fun. We didn't really need a treehouse anyway, once we had the flamethrower.
Reply to navarred
therealn0d
9/26
When I was a kid we had a quicksand box. I was an only child...eventually.
Reply to therealn0d
RossBukouricz7
9/26
"No food-thing is more essential to the ballpark experience"
I'm gonna have to stop you here. Come to Milwaukee and have some sort of sausage. Be it a brat, a polish, italian, or chorizo and you will realize the error of your ways, thinking a hot dog is the ultimate ballpark food. Though you are totally on point calling these sandwiches.
Reply to RossBukouricz7
rdemaro
9/26
I'm glad we can at least agree on that last point, Ross.
p.s. I'd love to try the food at Miller Park, btw. It does look tasty.
Reply to rdemaro
BenC22
9/26
This is bad and wrong
Reply to BenC22
rdemaro
9/26
Embrace the sandwich reality, Ben...
Reply to rdemaro
Gotribe31
9/26
#Craij is bad and wrong.
Reply to Gotribe31
therealn0d
9/26
Honestly, this is my favorite comment in this thread. I think I'm about 50/50 with Rocco on this topic, but if I could just get him to understand the morality of the issue...
:-)
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
Addressing the Elephant in the Room:
I realized my ketchup admission would be unpopular, but felt you guys deserved honesty here. It would've been easy to say I never put ketchup on a hotdog. That would've been the easy thing.
Alas, I sometimes do... usually when we're out of the 80 mustard.
Please respect my choice.
p.s. I'll add that I think this ketchup/hotdog thing is a bit overstated. The sweet/salty paradigm works in most food-things, as it does on a hotdog. The ratio--therein lies the rub, as too much ketchup can overpower the mustard, which should act as the star condiment.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
I'm on your side bro. I am not ashamed to admit my usage of ketchup in preparing my hot dogs (onions, too. Anybody got a problem with that?) To Hell with the Anti Ketch-ites.
But, just out of curiosity, what if I use catsup?
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
If Heinz isn't available, I just go pure mustard. The drop off, for me at least, is massive when going to Hunts or any other ketchup-knockoff.
But the disaster situation is when neither Heinz nor spicy brown mustard are available for your hot dog, as you'll sometime see at a golf course or a minor league park.
It's in these cases that our mettle as men is truly tested...
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
I'm a fify-fifty guy in optimal situations, but as ketchup quality decreases, mustard ratio increases. I think we're on the same page here. I can go ketchup-less but not all ketchup no mustard. Mustard is obligatory. In the golf course scenario (what golf courses are you playing?) I'd be inclined to ditch the bun and chow the dog solo. At the ballpark, condiments in packets only. I'm not dressing my chow from that disgusting open condiment bar.
Reply to therealn0d
MylesHandley
2/18
I appreciate your honesty. If we ever get a hot dog together, I promise I won't say anything; you'll have to read the disapproval in my eyes.
Reply to MylesHandley
faztradamus
9/26
I think we can all agree that a hot dog is a hot dog and a sandwich wis a sandwich. But can they be one and the same.
If I told you to imagine a pastrami sandwich, you'd probably imagine meat sliced think, piled high on some rye bread, mustard and/or horsey sauce, and pickles (within the creation or to the side). Maybe you'd imagine a cheese on here as well. But none of us whom are sane would hesitate to call this a sandwich.
Now when I say "hot dog," what comes to mind? Ballpark, overpriced beer, terrible parking lot experience on the way to the stadium, an already inebriated fan proclaiming the "awesomeness" of a player that is clearly washed up... back to the topic at hand please. You probably imagine a "frank" inside of a hotdog bun (sesame seed or not- and it better be the former), with condiments (mustard, relish, onions, etc, (if you use ketchup you are a terrorist)). Putting hot dog franks (sliced or still in intact tube form) inside of two pieces of flat bread, you ARE a heathen, and you have also just made a blasphemous sandwich.
When you order a hot dog, you usually just say "I'll have a hot dog." however when ordering an above discussed pastrami dish, you'd probably have to say "I'll have a pastrami SANDWICH."
When buying ingredients at the supermarket, toppings are toppings; but you oo to the deli for sandwich meat. You go to the hot dog/meat in cooler section for some "franks." There is a bread aisle where you can find all types and brands. However, hot dog "buns" (not "bread") may or may not be located in the same aisle.
Furthermore, when at a ballpark/picnic/grill-out/etc. The same thing applying to hot dog franks inside of a hot dog bun would apply to Polish Sausage (at times, superior even to the best of hot dogs), or a Bratwurst. You would not ask for a "Polish Sausage sandwich" or a "Bratwurst Sandwich" and expect it in the same format. You might expect such and order to arrive on a Kaiser roll, perhaps. Bread style/choice matters.
As for the argument of "wrap," "hamburger," or "burrito," I would argue for a new system of judgement along the lines of intent: marketability. Is something being marketed as a sandwich? Perhaps this is too close to the definition of intent. However, no one would ever say "I'll have a burrito sandwich." A burrito is very much its own thing. The same applies to the hamburger. A pulled-pork sandwich on a hamburger "bun" (read: not just bread, but a bun(s)) is a sandwich under the intent rule. A grey area for this is something on a hamburger bun that combined both pulled pork AND a hamburger patty (e.g. The Texas BBQ Burger now being offered at Carl's Jr.). I consider this a hybrid creation, a Frankenstein creation of food (but so, so tasty).
Wraps would also fall under this hybrid of food. It combines elements of a burrito and elements of a sandwich.
A sandwich does no necessarily need meat either. As was noted in the article, PB&J is a sandwich. This falls under the intent argument. Also, a "roasted tomato [and] caprese" could be called a sandwich, and not just a "caprese." Though the caprese comes in many forms including salad, so it should not be trusted.
I could go on, but my boss/IT might be suspicious why I spent so much time on a baseball site arguing sandwiches.
To recap: bread choice (style/kind), intent, marketability... with a grey area for hybrid food creations (and next weeks article).
Reply to faztradamus
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
Your whole argument is definition by cultural convention, not by actual definition. Just because a hot dog has an individual title doesn't make it not a sandwich. No one says "I'll have the Reuben Sandwich" either and yet no one doubts the sandwich-ness of the Reuben.
Your argument about bun vs bread is unconvincing at best. Buns are made of bread, end of story. A bun is a type of bread just as a hot dog is a type of sandwich.
We all agree that all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares? So it is with hot dogs and sandwiches.
Your solution is seemingly to define things as culture defines them, which is to say, provide no definition whatsoever.
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
BenC22
9/26
This is wrong and bad and you are a just a crony for Big Sandwich.
Reply to BenC22
heterodude
9/26
Man, I really want to eat a Big Sandwich right now.
Reply to heterodude
therealn0d
9/26
Is this like a Big Hall/Small Hall kind of thing? If so, I'm with you.
Reply to therealn0d
sfrischbp
9/27
+
Reply to sfrischbp
rdemaro
9/26
Preach.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
I have to disagree. I sandwich goes on two or more slices of bread, not a bun, or even a bun cut in half. It has to be traditional bread, no buns. So, yes, I'm arguing against the hamburgers admission to the sandwich fraternity. Wanna hamburger sandwich? Make a patty melt.
Reply to therealn0d
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
What about hoagies
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
NightmareRec0n
9/26
It functions properly as a sandwich if the bread is cut into two slices, therefore a sandwich.
Reply to NightmareRec0n
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
Can you not separate a hot dog bun in the same manner?
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
NightmareRec0n
9/26
Not without the hot dog rolling out onto the ground the minute you put put pressure on the bread.
Reply to NightmareRec0n
ncooke
9/26
What about a meatball sandwich? Sandwich is right there in the name, but lord help your shirt if you eat one with more than one open side...
Reply to ncooke
NightmareRec0n
9/27
Not a sandwich. Meatballs are food on their own right
Reply to NightmareRec0n
rdemaro
9/27
As is cheese, Nightmare, but put it between some bread and voila--sandwich. Same with chicken parm, hot sausage, etc.
Being a potentially seperate, standalone food thing in no way precludes something from being part of a sandwich.
A meatball hoagie/sub/whatever is definitely a sandwich.
therealn0d
9/26
Hoagies are served on rolls. Not sliced bread. No go.
Reply to therealn0d
ravenight
9/26
So pizza is a sandwich?
Reply to ravenight
rdemaro
9/26
A fine question; I vote yes, technically, but I'll leave the fine details to Craij.
Reply to rdemaro
ravenight
9/26
What about a bread bowl with chowder in it?
Reply to ravenight
rdemaro
9/26
No chance.
Reply to rdemaro
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
I posed this at one point, but I do not believe pizza is a sandwich. I think that preparation is crucial, and that sandwiches are *assembled* while pizzas are baked, with the dough and the ingredients being cooked together. That's not the case with a sandwich.
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
therealn0d
9/26
That's the most reasonable position I've seen you take yet. Plus, pizzas are trying to be "pies," apparently. Why do some many things want to be sandwiches? Just be yourself, hotdog/pizza/quesadilla (really?).
Reply to therealn0d
Dodger300
9/27
Pizzas become sandwiches when in the hands of New Yorkers who fold them over to eat, thus creating a crust on both sides.
Reply to Dodger300
NightmareRec0n
9/26
I strongly disagree. What is a word other than a series of letters or lexicon given a specific meaning by cultural convention though onomasiology.
For example : The word chips is assigned a different meaning in the UK than the US. The word sandwich's root actually is the old English Sandwicæ, meaning sandy harbor, but the word's definition was redefined by culture.
The most GENERAL definition of a sandwich is at least two slices of bread(or what could be without changing function) with some sort of filling.
A Reuben is a sandwich.
A hamburger is a sandwich.
Grilled Cheese/PBJ are sandwiches.
A panini is a sandwich.
A sub is a sandwich because the bread can be completely sliced into two slices and still function.
A hot dog is not because it has one piece of bread/uneatable if sliced into two slices..
A wrap/burrito/taco are not sandwich because they have one slice of bread.
An open faced sandwich is an "open faced sandwich", not a "sandwich"
Reply to NightmareRec0n
rdemaro
9/26
Bread is not necessary for something to be a sandwich. An ice cream sandwich--totally a sandwich, and on it's own merits (having nothing to do with the fact that it contains 'sandwich' in the name).
McCutchen's eureka moment, btw, came when, unprompted, he realized an ice cream sandwich was every bit a sandwich as a grilled cheese.
Similarly, a s'more is totally a sandwich. These are dessert sandwiches, but sandwiches nonetheless.
Reply to rdemaro
NightmareRec0n
9/26
I disagree. The sandwich in those refer to the act of "sandwiching", not the tradional sandwich.
Is a pasty, say pigs in a blanket,a sandwich?
Reply to NightmareRec0n
therealn0d
9/26
I was afraid it would come to this. We have to be careful here. You can't just put "sandwich" in the name of something and gain entry into the world of legitimate sandwiches. We have to be rational here.
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
Totally agree. See, I'm much less worried about what we call a thing, and more interested its composition. Like in the case of an open-faced sandwich--probably not a sandwich. I think a really important part of something being a sandwich is the ability to eat it with one's hands.
But in the case of the ice cream sandwich or the s'more--each meets every classic & cultural measure for what we would consider a sandwich, save for the bread, which seems like a really arbitrary criterion.
We should take inspiration from other food misnomers. The peanut, for example, has 'nut' in the name, but science tells us it's not a nut, and is actually a legume. So we agree, thereal--the name of a thing is not a proper consideration.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
In this case I'm inclined to agree with Nightmare above. You can "sandwich" things in an imitation of a sandwich, but it's just an imitation, not a sandwich proper. We gotta draw the line somewhere.
Reply to therealn0d
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
How incompetent are you at holding things that you can't eat a hot dog that loses it's connective breading between the two sides?
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
therealn0d
9/26
That's the most appealing point of a sandwich...you needn't worry about about connective breading. You have mustard stains on your lap, don't you Craig?
Reply to therealn0d
therealn0d
9/26
So what I mean to say is that the incompetence is that a hot dog isn't a sandwich. If it somehow becomes a sandwich, your dry cleaning bill goes up.
Reply to therealn0d
NightmareRec0n
9/27
It is difficult and sandwiches were made for convenience. Other than the mentioned meatball sub, think of any an sandwich that suffers this problem?
Reply to NightmareRec0n
therealn0d
9/26
To paraphrase a certain Supreme Court Justice, I know a sandwich when I see one.
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
There's are jokes to be made at this point re: p*rnography and sandwiches, but I'm not sure they're suitable here. So let's all stroll on by this opportunity and carry on.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
I flew to close to the Sun on wings of pastrami.
Reply to therealn0d
Dodger300
9/27
A agree with Craig, and will take the issue one step further:
Technically speaking, hamburger and hot dogs buns are known in the trade as "sandwich buns." Just read the package and you'll see.
That pretty much settles the argument for everyone except the science deniers, who will never give an inch.
Reply to Dodger300
maphal
9/26
I know this is going to get some negative votes, but ketchup on a hot dog should be outlawed. Its disgusting.
Reply to maphal
therealn0d
9/26
"Weiners in buns only, no condiments."
Reply to therealn0d
mattsussman
9/26
Should a hot dog win MVP
Reply to mattsussman
DeathSpeculum
9/26
a hot dog is the daddy long legs of food, not a spider and not an insect.
Reply to DeathSpeculum
rdemaro
9/26
Wait... a daddy long legs isn't a spider?
Reply to rdemaro
NightmareRec0n
9/26
Technically they are in a different order the spiders, but they are both in the class Arachnid,derived from the Greek arachne,meaning spider.
Reply to NightmareRec0n
cfliegel
9/26
From a theoretically scientific perspective, the topology of the hot dog, the hamburger and the slice of deli meat are all the same. Therefore, mathematically, what sits inside the bread is essentially all the same thing. The case can be made, however, that the bread it not the same - a hamburger bun and a hot dog bun, formed as one piece, is topologically the same as a wrap, or even a moebius strip, and altogether different than TWO slices of bread (but identical to ONE). Therefore the argument can be made that the topology of the out later keeps burgers, hot dogs and wraps from being sandwiches, unless they are somehow modified (or torn).
A torus-shaped bread structure, colloquially a bagel or donut, is also topologically identical to a cylinder therefore can be considered as the same object.
In essence, what this means from a scientific perspective, and considering the implications of these breads as Gaussian surfaces as well, for the calculation of field strengths, is that I am now quite hungry.
Reply to cfliegel
jfranco77
9/26
I think NatsReviewCharlie is on the right track, but what if I eat a turkey sandwich on a round roll from the bakery that I had to slice myself?
Reply to jfranco77
smithdb
9/26
Or what if I spread some peanut butter on a single slice of bread and then fold it in half?
Reply to smithdb
therealn0d
9/26
If you fold it so that the single piece breaks in to two pieces of bread, you got yourself a sandwich.
Reply to therealn0d
cfliegel
9/26
I guess what it comes down to - if you eat corned beef on a Moebius strip of rye, are you able to call it a sandwich?
I assume answering this question will take up most of the accelerator's time at CERN for the next decade.
Reply to cfliegel
unlikelyfanatic
9/26
I, for one, have found that only by putting ketchup on hot dogs (be they sandwiches or no) can I stand to eat them game after minor league game.
They're not sandwiches, though.
Reply to unlikelyfanatic
therealn0d
9/26
I applaud you!
Reply to therealn0d
BenC22
9/26
Ketchup is generally sh*tty but hot dogs are one of the few acceptable vehicles for its consumption.
Reply to BenC22
therealn0d
9/26
French fries? Okay, wait...bad quality french fries? Keep in mind that I'm a big-time-mega-super-huge potato guy, and I say go ahead.
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
I was like you at the start of my Hot Dog eating career, Kate. Only ketchup, and I was happy. But man... you should really try some HQ brown mustard one of these days. Potential life-changer.
Reply to rdemaro
unlikelyfanatic
9/26
I enjoy a good honey mustard, but that's not usually available at ballparks, which is pretty much exclusively where I eat hot dogs.
Reply to unlikelyfanatic
therealn0d
9/26
Brown mustard, Kate. You can sneak it in to the park.
Reply to therealn0d
smithdb
9/26
At the risk of mixing two different realms of thought, a quick read of Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations should answer the question. (Though, as I recall, he uses the category "game" as his example -- is 'a game of catch' a game?)
Reply to smithdb
troybruno
9/26
when did we stop recognizing wikipedia as the final authority on all matters? (sarcasm!)
"A hot dog (also spelled hotdog) is a cooked sausage, traditionally grilled or steamed and served in a sliced bun as a sandwich."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_dog
Reply to troybruno
Shauncore
9/26
Clearly this article has been edited by Craij
Reply to Shauncore
Muboshgu
9/26
And per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandwich ...
"A sandwich is a food item consisting of one or more types of food placed on or between slices of bread, or more generally any dish wherein two or more pieces of bread serve as a container or wrapper for some other food."
Hot dogs qualify.
Reply to Muboshgu
NightmareRec0n
9/26
Only one slice of bread:See New England style hot dog rolls.
If you slice the bread in two slices, the hot dog would roll out. This is not the case of a sub,where the sandwich is completely ediable.
Reply to NightmareRec0n
onetimeforall
9/26
I haven't spent nearly as much time thinking about this as many clearly have. But it seems a hot dog begins as a sandwich. However, once the condiments are applied outside of the confines of the sandwich, it loses sandwich eligibility and is now a hot dog. When asked to describe a hot dog, no one will only describe the bun and the meat, but the condiments as well. I can't think of a sandwich that has condiments added on top of it outside of the sandwich. The hot dog bun is intended to enclose the sandwich, and your mustard is not intended to go inside the bun.
Reply to onetimeforall
therealn0d
9/26
If the hot dog bun was intended to enclose the weiner, it wouldn't split every time you tried to enclose it.
Reply to therealn0d
unlikelyfanatic
9/26
And, if it did enclose it, it would be a kolache or pig-in-the-blanket, rather than a hot dog.
Reply to unlikelyfanatic
NightmareRec0n
9/26
Is a pig in a blanket a sandwich?
Reply to NightmareRec0n
therealn0d
9/26
If you cut the dogs in half lengthwise and place them between two pieces of bread, I say sandwich.
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/26
Although, anyone who's ever had a Puka Dog in Hawaii can attest that, even if the bun is enclosed, that sucker is still definitely a hot dog... and therefore, a sandwich.
I think that means that yes, a Pig in a Blanket would also qualify, technically... the same way a cashew is technically a legume and Ryan Doumit is technically a catcher (that joke would've landed much better in 2010).
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/26
How many logical fallicies did you plan on using in the construction of that post?
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/27
I had planned on four; might've overshot?
In all (non) seriousness, a Puka Dog is an enclosed hot dog. And it's definitely still a sandwich, given the parameters we've established re: the irrelevance of how or where the bread is sliced.
https://warosu.org/data/ck/img/0053/82/1398409920887.jpg
You can't look at that and tell me it's not a sandwich.
A Pig in a Blanket is basically the same idea, except with a different type of bread and a smaller form factor. Hence, sandwich.
Reply to rdemaro
timber
9/26
Mustard may absolutely go inside the bun.
Reply to timber
rdemaro
9/27
It certainly does in a Puka Dog.
It's actually cool, the way they make the hole for the Puka-bun. They have these heated, phallic-looking spires and they just slam the uncut bun down on the spire, creating a hole through the middle. From there, they slide the hot dog in & fill the middle with condiments of your choosing.
There are also salsa options, but now I'm rambling...
Reply to rdemaro
Muboshgu
9/26
The hot dog is the hot button issue of our time.
I wonder if this will become BP's most commented-upon article.
Reply to Muboshgu
bobbygrace
9/26
What would John Montagu, 4th Earl of Sandwich, have to say? His invention hinged on the history-changing insight that bread can serve as a vehicle for meats and/or other ingredients that would otherwise be unseemly to consume without the use of fork and knife. For Montagu, form followed function: he wanted to eat without fussing over dishes. Would this man have shunned the first sandwich had his cook presented him with a frankfurter in a half-cleaved baguette? He would not. The 4th Earl of Sandwich was nothing if not a practical man. He did not stand on ceremony, nor did he let the conventions of his epoch preclude him from eating a substantial, utensil-free repast while playing cards. Clearly, then, any loosely systematized arrangement of bread-borne ingredients, eaten literally out of hand, without utensils, fits the original definition of a sandwich.
But let us follow Montagu's stunning insight and brave example to their logical conclusions, lest we allow convention to obscure the possibilities inherent in his vision. If form followed function for Montagu, then the components of the original sandwich must have mattered less to him than the concept of the non-utensil food delivery system. Had he lived to see their invention, might it not be that Montagu would have bestowed the proud name of his earldom on chips and salsa, pita and hummus, injera and lentils, or even marinara sauce dipped from the jar with a large uncooked pasta shell?
Reply to bobbygrace
captnamerca
9/26
If Thomas Jefferson is a sandwich, then hot dogs are his black descendants. They just want to be invited to the family barbeque.
Reply to captnamerca
jnossal
9/29
Let's see the DNA results first.
Reply to jnossal
heterodude
9/26
I don't really like the argument regarding an intent to close. Cheesesteaks and hoagies are universally recognized as sandwiches, but the quantity of meat inside means there should be no reasonable expectation of the bread to close. By Craig Breslow's logic, these objects should be removed from the sandwich distinction, similar to Pluto losing its status as a planet.
If KFC can call bacon and cheese between two pieces of breaded chicken WITH NO BUN OF ANY SORT a sandwich, I don't see why any object purposely enclosed by another object cannot be legitimately regarded as a sandwich.
I say we grease up the slippery slope and let it all slide.
Reply to heterodude
dianagramr
9/26
A lobster roll is not a sandwich, and since a hot dog is basically served on the same "bread construction" as a lobster roll, I'd say "no" to "is a hot dog a sandwich?"
More reading on "sandwich"
http://www.open-sandwich.co.uk/town_history/sandwich_origin.htm
Reply to dianagramr
TheArtfulDodger
9/26
but a lobster roll is a sandwich
Reply to TheArtfulDodger
jayhashop
9/26
Hot dogs are not sandwiches. Hot dogs are tacos. Quesadillas are sandwiches.
Reply to jayhashop
therealn0d
9/29
I asked my Mexican coworker about this (and Mexican as in immigrant, so actually Mexican.) She says "Mehico no ha' no sandwishes." This is a true story.
Reply to therealn0d
faztradamus
9/26
If this is not the entire next episode of TINO, we have failed as a society.
Reply to faztradamus
NightmareRec0n
9/26
Also it is worth a note that in the State of Massachusetts: Sandwich must have 2 slices of bread.
Http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2006/11/10/arguments_spread_thick/
Reply to NightmareRec0n
NathanAderhold
9/26
Wow. I've officially converted to hot dog sandwichdom. Didn't see that coming.
Now that the hot dog discussion has been well tread, I feel the next step is to take the question to its logical extremes, find the line of sandwich demarcation:
e.g. Is a sushi roll a sandwich?
Reply to NathanAderhold
faztradamus
9/26
Some men just want to watch the world burn.
Reply to faztradamus
therealn0d
9/26
I'm going to upvote you because some unfeeling sob downvoted you, but keep this in mind:
Once you start down the Dark Side, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Reply to therealn0d
mdupske
9/27
Changer!
Reply to mdupske
JusitnG
9/26
To me... it's all about the the VERB sandwich.
"To insert or squeeze (someone or something) between two other people or things, typically in a restricted space or so as to be uncomfortable."
So it's all about one thing being in between two other things.
Two distinct halves of a hot dog make a hot dog a sandwich. The dog itself is SANDWICHED between the halves.
Two distinct halves of a hard-shelled taco make a hard-shelled taco a sandwich.
Two distinct halves of a quesadilla make a quesadilla a sandwich.
Since a wrap contains a continuous circle (from the end view), and not two distinct halves, a wrap is NOT a sandwich. HOWEVER, if the two ends of the wrap's tortilla are folded out from under themselves, the wrap can be turned into a quesadilla structure with two distinct halves and hence SANDWICHING the insides.
So a wrap is a wrap, but it CAN be turned into a sandwich.
Reply to JusitnG
JusitnG
9/26
I think Taco Bell's Crunchwrap Supreme is... THE line.
everything to one side is a sandwich, and everything to the other side (and including the Crunchwrap) is NOT a sandwich.
Reply to JusitnG
therealn0d
9/28
The line is a dot to you.
Reply to therealn0d
therealn0d
9/26
A hot dog bun is not two other things, it is one thing...a bun. You are so behind the times.
Reply to therealn0d
ravenight
9/26
Pizza, especially when eaten properly has many of the same characteristics as a hot dog. This does not make it a sandwich.
Maki is not a god damn sandwich, even though you've got one element enclosing another element. A jelly doughnut is also not a sandwich. Neither are combos, or M&Ms.
A bagel, sliced in half and eaten with cream cheese and lox on top, is not a sandwich. Put the two halves back together and it is now a sandwich.
This illustrates the real point - it's a sandwich if you are sandwiching something between two flat pieces. A KFC Double Down is a sandwich, no matter how horrifying. A taco isn't one. Neither is a burrito, tax law be damned.
If you need a super-class that encloses all these things for some nefarious purpose, I suppose you can call them whatever you want. But that has as much validity as referring to a piece of toilet paper as a Kleenex. We get what you're saying, but I'm still going to narrow my eyes as I hand it to you.
Reply to ravenight
ravenight
9/26
Cheesesteaks, tacos, hot dogs, pizza, certain styles of hoagie - these things are all characteristically different from sandwiches: ingredients are laid on a piece of bread, then folded up and eaten sideways, instead of being squeezed between two pieces of bread.
Reply to ravenight
LeafontheWind
9/26
This is easily the most commented on article I've ever seen at BP. Well done, sir.
Hot dogs aren't sandwiches, of course, but well done just the same.
Reply to LeafontheWind
rdemaro
9/26
Hh. Awesome. Thanks, Leaf.
I'll add that, as a Browncoat, I'm both impressed with and horrified at your choice of username. May he rest in peace.
p.s. Obviously a sandwich.
Reply to rdemaro
DeathSpeculum
9/27
a burrito is a sandwich, but not a "smothered" burrito, which one would eat with a fork (and presumably a knife) - therefor bread (or a bread like device) and portability are the two essential sandwich elements. if you can't eat it in the car, it's not a sandwich.
Reply to DeathSpeculum
dshemie8
9/27
Baseball journalism!
Reply to dshemie8
ddietz2004
9/27
This type of content should really require a SUBscription.
Reply to ddietz2004
Dodger300
9/27
After reading all the way through these comments, the consensus is clearly that most people eventually admit that a hot dog is a sandwich, even if they initially balked at the idea.
Nonetheless, Josh Hamilton's observation that kicked off the article remains true: "if you ask someone to make you a sandwich, they aren't going to make you a hot dog."
We've come full circle.
Reply to Dodger300
rdemaro
9/27
Quick clarification, Dodger--that was Josh Harrison's quote. But I do agree with your analysis--when forced to think critically on the issue, most do come around to the idea of a hot dog as a sandwich.
Reply to rdemaro
jwferg
9/27
It's a sandwich if "X" clearly cannot be eaten with the bare hands, and requires two pieces of bread or a bun of some sort to consume easily. Sausages can easily be eaten neatly without help, so you call them by their sausage-name, and not a sandwich.
Reply to jwferg
sfrischbp
9/27
To inject a bit of history, Jim's original, one of the classic Chicago hot dog places, pretty clearly classifies the hot dog as a sandwich. I have a picture of an old picture that indicates "free fries with all sandwiches" where the hot dog, Polish sausage, and hamburger all qualify. Even their current website says the same thing, indicates they have the world's greatest sandwiches, and calls the Polish sausage the original Polish sausage sandwich (http://www.jimsoriginal.com/jimsoriginal/Welcome/ for the curious).
Reply to sfrischbp
therealn0d
9/27
I'm proclaiming ramen noodle soup as the world's best spaghetti, and also a sandwich. Do I need to take pictures and make menus and billboards or can I just get away with saying it?
Reply to therealn0d
sfrischbp
9/28
If you can get enough people to accept it... Though the author dismisses the idea that the meaning of words is determined by convention as stupid, it is true (as the unfortunate case of "literally" has so recently shown).
Reply to sfrischbp
phreaks619
9/28
So an article about hot dogs gets the record for most comments? lol...
Reply to phreaks619
rdemaro
9/28
Life is weird!
Reply to rdemaro
rkowna
9/28
At first i thought it can't be, a sandwich must be ensconced in two separate pieces of bread. A hot dog bun, even though it will eventually likely tear apart, especially if you dip it in water a la Joey Chestnut, is still joined at birth. Then I think of a Chicago Italian beef, it is on french or italian bread and the bottom doesn't fall out until the third bite or so. That is definitely a sandwich. I would rather continue to ponder the hot dog question and the what the hell happened to Justin Verlander question so once I figure it out I will be back.
Reply to rkowna
therealn0d
9/28
I ran "Chicago Italian Beef" through my sandwich database and got no results. Interestingly, I did get a result for Justin Verlander; his favorite sandwich is "NA."
Reply to therealn0d
rdemaro
9/28
I think there's probably a joke to be made here involving Ms. Upton, but again, this is not the place.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/28
If you keep making these implications people are going to think I'm the one with the dirty mind.
Reply to therealn0d
BurrRutledge
9/28
So it's the last day of the MLB regular season, and I'm on a flight without wifi access. So, I can rationalize / philosophize about this great American conundrum, and hit send once I've landed (probably after checking on all the games I've missed). You all get to read (or ignore) my thought process at your peril.
What are the important distinctions to make up a sandwich?
1). A sandwich is a solid food. Edible, though not necessarily nutritious. I can't even think of anything that one might call a sandwich that is also either liquid or inedible. There are metaphorical sandwiches such as getting smooshed in the middle seat on a cross-country flight between two large strangers, but that's just a metaphor. Or, it's an alternate definition at best.
2) In addition to being a food, a sandwich is a Finger Food. Food to be consumed without utensils, and with your hands. Utensils are a disqualifying tool. And so, the method of consumption is inherent in the definition of a sandwich. The Earl of Sandwich, I do believe, created this genre of food, and it was created for the very purpose of eliminating utensils.
Forks, knives, spoons, chop sticks, skewers, and any other inedible delivery tool that comes between your hands and the food being consumed disqualifies that food from being a sandwich. Sushi, no. Fondue, no. Kebab, no. Corn dog, no.
2a) important note: a toothpick holding together your sandwich before or during consumption is acceptable, as long as you don't typically hold that implement in the act of picking up or eating it.
3). A sandwich has at least two unique food components brought together to create a combined finger food. Cheese sticks are not a sandwich. Beef jerky is not a sandwich.
4). One of the components is a grain-based product. Salami wrapped around the cheese stick is not a sandwich. Peanut butter spread into a celery stick is not a sandwich. A piece of prosciutto wrapped around a piece of melon is not a sandwich.
5). At the time of the assembly/combining of components, the grain-based component of a sandwich is a serve-able food product.
This eliminates from the sandwich family any finger foods where a dough is baked after the food is assembled, such as pizza. Or pigs in a blanket.
5a). However, once assembled to become a sandwich, it can be heated prior to serving. A toasted sandwich is still a sandwich.
6). The grain-based product is baked. Even though a doughnut is a grain-based product, a jelly-stuffed doughnut is not a sandwich.
6a). However, in the heating of an already-assembled sandwich (see 5a), frying is acceptable. Grilled cheese is still a sandwich after it has been fried / grilled.
7). The non-grain based component(s) is/are placed or spread onto or within the grain-based product that has been opened to receive them. Dipping a dinner roll (even one that has been opened) into olive oil does not make it sandwich. Spreading butter into one, however, is a sandwich.
7a). Once assembled, a sandwich can be dipped into a dressing or sauce. E.g. french dip.
I think this is all it takes to be a sandwich:
An assembled finger food with one one or more components spread or placed onto a grain-based baked good that has been opened to receive it.
Good timing, too, because I just landed.
Reply to BurrRutledge
rdemaro
9/29
I like your criteria, Burr, but I really don't think the grain qualification is necessary. Ice cream sandwiches, s'mores... these meet every other guideline, and should absolutely be considered sandwiches. They're as much a sandwich as a PB & J, a Hot Dog or a Hamburger.
There's nothing wrong, improper or inherently fallacious with a dessert sandwich; I maintain we should be inclusionary when it comes to our non-savory sandwich brethren.
Reply to rdemaro
BurrRutledge
9/29
Thanks, Rocco. I think the grain component is a necessity (and your examples of s'mores and ice cream sandwiches have a notable grain component. Prosciutto wrapped around asparagus does not). Breakfast, lunch, dinner, or dessert does not influence my definition.
A hesitation that I have in my definition at this point might be the 'baked' aspect of the grain. Tortillas are grain-based, but grilled instead of baked. I'm comfortable excluding wraps and tacos, but I wouldn't argue too strenuously here and I might yield this point.
Thinking through some other baked goods that fit my full definition (not the summary at the bottom, which is incomplete) include:
Petit fours ...? even though it's a mini layer cake finger food, I hesitate to think of this as a sandwich. Perhaps the frosting on the outside is bothering me. But a moon pie with the frosting on the inside is a sandwich. Maybe I need to include something in the definition where the outside of the assembly is the grain component. I had left that out before, but that seems to be important. But that then eliminates an open-faced cheese (or other style) sandwich.
However, I can solve this by adding into the definition that if there are more than two layers in the assembly, then the top and bottom layers must be the baked grain component.
... and a cupcake has only two layers. So either a cupcake is a sandwich, or... I have to eliminate the two-layer assembly from the definition.
And that's where I am, long after the last game has finished, and just as I am ready to retire for the evening and unsatisfied with this result.
Reply to BurrRutledge
therealn0d
9/28
You went overboard with the butter sandwich. Next thing you know we have an air sandwich.
Reply to therealn0d
BurrRutledge
9/29
The good ol' butter sandwich. Mayo sandwiches are also good.
Reply to BurrRutledge
sfrischbp
9/29
I had a grandmother who was used to things like this from growing up during the depression. She saves the grease from making bacon and has a GLT sandwich after the bacon is gone.
Reply to sfrischbp
rdemaro
9/29
Nonsense, Burr! I think you've done fine work. And yes, I wasn't thinking quite deeply enough about the component ingredients of the dessert sandwiches I proffered; each does include flour, of course, so your grain rule would hold in those cases.
As for the rest, yes, I'd personally prefer to err on the side of inclusionary than exclusionary. So perhaps your 'baked' aspect still needs some fine tuning. And clearly a cupcake isn't a sandwich, so we'll need to sort out the layer language.
As for the rest, the grain thing still seems a bit finicky--there has to be an exception that'll give us the dreaded 'but wait' moment--but I'll roll it around with my local sandwich think tank (Mrs. DeMaro) and try to come up with a potential improvement.
I'm off to bed myself; see you guys tomorrow...
Reply to rdemaro
BurrRutledge
9/29
Mrs. Rutledge is firmly in the exclusionary camp. Hot dog as a sandwich? Crazy talk.
Reply to BurrRutledge
rdemaro
9/29
Show her the light, Burr! Her conformist sandwichness is a pox on the Rutledge house...
Reply to rdemaro
sfrischbp
9/29
A cupcake may not be a sandwich, but if you pull the bottom off of the cupcake and then put it on top in order to hold it, it becomes a cupcake sandwich: http://tessiebakes.blogspot.com/2011/04/cupcake-sandwich.html
Reply to sfrischbp
rdemaro
9/29
Or would that just be cake? Because cake isn't a sandwich. Or at least it shouldn't be, I don't think.
Reply to rdemaro
therealn0d
9/29
I hope you're starting to see the problem here. You've gotten yourself so wrapped up in sandwich expansion that you don't even know what to think. You are teetering on accepting anything as a sandwich. You must gather yourself, man. The evildoers will stop at nothing.
Reply to therealn0d
lyricalkiller
9/29
A cream-filled cupcake is obviously a sandwich
Reply to lyricalkiller
therealn0d
9/29
Case in point.
Reply to therealn0d
mcarnow
10/03
From John Hodgman
By JOHN HODGMAN
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/05/04/magazine/04-one-page-magazine.html?smid=tw-nytmag&_r=1
ERIN WRITES:My best friend, Dennis, and I have been arguing about whether or not a hot dog is a sandwich. I say that only a total pedant would ever think of a hot dog as a sandwich, which Dennis is. Dennis says that I can’t just decide something isn’t what it is because I think otherwise. Is a hot dog a sandwich or not?
Let me apply the wisdom of Solomon: If your friend’s hot dog is a sandwich, why doesn’t he just cut it in half? HE CAN’T, CAN HE? Because it is not a sandwich, but a hot dog, indivisible and sui generis — a culinary anomaly so compelling that we actually eat it, even when it is cooked in a tank on a cart.
Reply to mcarnow
rdemaro
10/03
Man. So crazy that this idea has spread so far across the culture.
Another tendril: https://twitter.com/rrussitano/status/517132968205504512
So Reddit, Digg & Fox Sports all picked up the story & re-posted. And we have The NY Times & Fox News exploring the idea.
Hot dogs, man. Who knew?
Reply to rdemaro
